Gulf War II
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This page contains the comments about the impending Second Gulf War that have appeared on Norfolknet. The thread was moved off the main page because of the sustained large volume of traffic that was getting repetitious. To add your own comments, write to discussion@norfolknet.com.
[T]oday, I weep for my country. I have watched the events of recent months with a heavy, heavy heart. No more is the image of America one of strong yet benevolent peacekeeper. The image of America has changed. Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are questioned.
"[The US] see a new resolution as cover for their activities rather than a route to enabling the UN to coordinate reconstruction," said one Whitehall official.Without a UN resolution, Whitehall lawyers say that the US and UK occupying forces would have no legal right to run the country's institutions. "There is no legal mandate for that sort of activity," said one Whitehall official. "It's all quite bizarre."
the Neocons' list of potentially troublesome countries is a much more ambitious one. Syria, and even Saudi Arabia figure prominently on the list of nations requiring "special attention."In recent months there has been much talk in Washington of going as far as "breaking up" Saudi Arabia into several smaller, and thus more manageable entities. But these discussions passed by almost unnoticed while the main focus centered around the political debate raging over the Iraq issue.
A time comes when silence is betrayal. Even when pressed by the demands of inner truth, men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government's policy, especially in time of war. Nor does the human spirit move without great difficulty against all the apathy of conformist thought within one's own bosom and in the surrounding world. Moreover, when the issues at hand seem as perplexing as they often do in the case of dreadful conflict, we are always on the verge of being mesmerized by uncertainty. But we must move on.Stay safe neighbors,Some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found that the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak. For we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close around us....
[Come on, please, no Hitler anaglogies. People who compare Hussein to Hitler fall into one of three groups - calculating cynics out to manipulate popular sentiment, those with no real understanding of what Hitler did to Europe, and those with no understanding of the subject merely repeating what they've heard. - Wm.]
[Please try harder to resist the next time. The appropriate forum for rejoinders to articles in ``the local Pravda'' is that same publication. I don't like being put in the position of having to struggle to maintain the focus of this page, this is chewing up enough of my time already - Wm.]
[Then I guess I don't get it. I believe that friends, promises made, agreed-upon rules of conduct, a Constitution, and government by consent are relevant. Perhaps I'm naive, but I still believe - Wm.]
[Cameroon may carry more clout with Bush, but France carries a veto in the U.N. security council. As long as the administration desires that facade of legitimacy offered by the UN, France has a say. As to being an occupied country, I believe that exactly is the point even the Iraqis are stressing, our noble claims of being a liberation force notwithstanding - Wm.]
[Ahh, the magical wonder of perspective :-) - Wm.]
[Having read the article, "helping" in this case does not apply - the question is who should administer the post-conquest Iraq. France reserves that role for international organizations, while the US wants to have unilateral US-British authority. - Wm.]
[Thanks for the link, the page contains the latest war updates from the various news services, but which article were you referring to? - Wm.
12:35 Sorry wrong link - [use this] - PC]
[Wouldn't know, that's before my time :-) The only pig-singing group that I know of included Kermit the Frog - Wm.]
These strains go well beyond the matter of Iraq, which is not vital enough to wreak such damage. In fact, the debate is not about Saddam anymore. It is about America and its role in the new world.The administration claims that many countries support the United States but do so quietly. That signals an even deeper problem. Countries are furtive in their support for the administration not because they fear Saddam Hussein but because they fear their own people. To support America today in much of the world is politically dangerous.
[T]he administration is wrong if it believes that a successful war will make the world snap out of a deep and widening mistrust and resentment of American foreign policy. [...] [T]he United States will spend as much next year on defense as the rest of the world put together (yes, all 191 countries).
[Shoot, all the editing (sanitizing!) I've had to do today, and I still missed that one! I apologize, I should not have left it in - Wm.]
[I re-read the original post, and the criticism of France was not disclaimed, unlike the assumptions about France's understanding of resolution 1441 and the belief that France crippled the UN process. The argument about lack of proof is an exercise in logic, not opinion; the assertion that we do not have direct evidence is rhetoric - although logically true, it is conditional on a premise that we do not know to be either true or false. As to opinions about others' views and coping mechanisms, that's straying a bit too far - Wm.]
[Oops, that wasn't an unnamed poster, that was a missing close-brace that caused the initials to be swallowed into the HTML. Sorry; fixed now - Wm.]
p.s. though I am not necessarily for this war, my heart goes out to all those troops over there and I hope for their safe return.
[That clearly was not "his opinion," nor what he said - but you know that. Careful with the "he feels" and the like, that's getting close to gratuitous insult. If you can't rebut the rhetoric on material grounds, stop arguing. If you absolutely must insert personal digs, be more subtle :-) - Wm.]
DAF... Sorry, forgot to point out that currently there are a large number of countries backing the US. Roughly 40, sound about right? And no, I do not find this war to be a positive thing. You need to balance your N.P.R. listening with a little FM Talk. - SW
- National Guard AssociationThe veterans vividly remember D-Day and the war, even as the rest of America is forgetting... Failure to secure the Normandy beaches would mean the likely extinction of democracy and freedom in Europe.
- Bill graciously returned the compliment by recalling Gen. `Blackjack' Pershing's immortal words on landing with his American troops in France in 1917: `Lafayette, we are here.'
[``This humorless board,'' as you so kindly put it, was never intended for hilarity; there are plenty of other forums for jokes. If sincere sentiment is too dry for some, well, then so be it. The last time a discussion turned into ``entertainment . . . nothing more or less,'' it degenerated to the point of having to be shut down. - Wm.]
- The Statue of Liberty was was a gift of friendship from the people of France to the United States to commemorate the 100th anniversary of American independence dedicated in 1886). This was well before we "saved their country" in WWII.
- When the Americans joined the British, Canadian, and Polish forces to fight their way ashore on D-Day, one might say that they were repaying a debt. Talk to any soldier who fought that day who still lives and invariably they will tell you that they had come to France not only to fight Nazism, but also to help repay the nation's debt to France for its decisive help in America's war of independence. Remember Marquis de Lafayette from fourth grade history class?
The more likely direction this will take [after a war with Iraq] will be Iran, and possibly Syria. North Korea is a different case. What they are demonstrating to the world with great clarity is that if you want to deter US aggression you better have weapons of mass destruction [WMD], or else a credible threat of terror. There's nothing else that will deter them - they can't be deterred by conventional forces. That's a terrible lesson to teach, but it's exactly what's being taught.- ARFor years, experts in the mainstream have been pointing out that the US is causing weapons proliferation by its adventures since others cannot protect themselves except by WMD or the threat of terror. [...] [F]or much of the world, the US is now regarded as a rogue state and the leading threat to their existence.
The chances that they will allow anything approximating real democracy are pretty slight. There's major problems in the way of that - problems that motivated Bush No 1 to oppose the rebellions in 1991 that could have overthrown Saddam Hussein. After all, he could have been overthrown then if the US had not authorised Saddam to crush the rebellions.
[I completely missed the pretzel incident, but now the pretzels make more sense. The German sign reads "Peace for the world, pretzels for Bush", and was displayed on occasion of his May 2002 visit - Wm.]
- Check out the editorial rationale - the US saves their country with our soldiers' lives and they float us a statue and think were even.
- Lets hear it for Tony Blair - he turned back the insurgent communists - good work TB
- Go to www.google.com and type in French military victories, choose "I'm feeling lucky." Pretty much sums it up.
- How many times have you heard if only Al Gore was president recently?
[That "French military victories" page is a really funny hoax :-) Someone created a web page that mimics the Google search results page, then tricked Google into prioritizing it into first place. Clicking the "I'm feeling lucky" button takes you to the first page found - and voila! (oops, I mean, "cello!" :-) - Wm.]
"Why, of course, the people don't want war. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."- AR- Hermann Goering, April 18, 1946, Nuremberg
[2:29pm Ahh yes, "freedom toast" and "freedom fries." The ``Freedom Statue,'' another French contribution to our way of life, was not part of the post.
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